Disruptive Faith - Latest Comments

Re: Random thoughts from Tahoe

Josh — Sun, 02 Nov 2008 23:57:16 -0000

reply comment

Re: Random thoughts from Tahoe

Josh — Sun, 02 Nov 2008 23:55:42 -0000

test

Re: Random thoughts from Tahoe

Josh — Sun, 02 Nov 2008 23:47:58 -0000

another test comment

Re: Random thoughts from Tahoe

Josh — Sun, 02 Nov 2008 23:46:44 -0000

test comment

Re: Pumpkin carving pros

Sarah — Sun, 02 Nov 2008 23:05:20 -0000

I agree with Ash, we once left them out too long (about 2 weeks) and found out that they get all mushy on the bottom and you can't pick them up anymore-so before that point...and by the way-they are very cute (both the kids and the pumpkins)

Re: Praying Backwards

Josh — Sun, 02 Nov 2008 22:48:28 -0000

@Los - No prob man. Keep up the great stuff!

Re: Praying Backwards

Los — Sun, 02 Nov 2008 22:45:59 -0000

Thanks for the love.
Los

Re: Starting young

Ashley Christian — Sat, 01 Nov 2008 18:15:14 -0000

NO WAY!!!

Re: Pumpkin carving pros

Ashley Christian — Sat, 01 Nov 2008 16:29:17 -0000

I think till the flies come . . .

Re: 12 Days of Chrismuck (nastiness ahead!)

Danny — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 11:35:51 -0000

man gooooood times

Re: 12 Days of Chrismuck (nastiness ahead!)

Kara — Wed, 29 Oct 2008 20:20:58 -0000

Mikayla saw the pictures and was asking where Ashley was...maybe she should join next time??? :)

Re: 12 Days of Chrismuck (nastiness ahead!)

Ashley Christian — Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:00:40 -0000

Jaden says "ewww, that's ascusting, that guy licking daddy, that's ascusting, how did daddy get home? He was all messy."

I said, Is that really Monica spitting milk at John!!! I heard you tell this story but I couldn't fully appreciate the nastiness until seeing these pictures.

Re: SNL’s Giant Multitouch Screen (Hilarious!)

David — Wed, 29 Oct 2008 02:47:40 -0000

this bit was awesome
i think it was probably the funniest part of the whole show

Re: I feel old because…

Sarah — Wed, 29 Oct 2008 00:06:54 -0000

I know I'm a little late on this discussion, but no offense-you are getting older. We all are-Ali Lefebvre is getting married this year and kids I babysat as babies are graduating high school! But it beats the alternative...right?!

Re: Halloween as a Christian

Crystal of Crystal's Randomnes — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 22:55:36 -0000

OK, so I kind of enjoy Halloween, but it hasn't always been so. When I was in 1st grade the school had a haunted house in the locked part of the basement. Just being in a place that was normally restricted, and then it being as decked out as it was made me so scared I literally lost my voice. I remember wanting to scream and nothing coming out. I just turned the other way and ran out. I didn't really participate in anything beyond harvest parties and trick-or-treating after that.

As an adult I love a good scare, but I think for kids too much is put out in front of them. They have such vivid imaginations, and it's so hard for them to draw the line between fantasy and reality sometimes, and things like this don't help.

I don't think I'd have kids participate in much of anything Halloween related. Living out in the country like I do I know I'm able to shelter more than someone who lives in the suburbs or the city. I think as a result a lot of people, to the detriment of their kids, just give up. There is this idea of not being able to protect them. But being a parent is a big job, I don't want to sound like the judgmental childless mother, but I do think some parents drop the ball in the department of protecting their kids and giving them the gift of actually having a childhood in this day and age.

I think your spiritual sensitivity to this 'holiday' is a blessed gift. You are a thinking dad who is going to look out for your children as a result. I think it shows that you have the heart of a believer. Some parents just don't have that type of spiritual guidance in their lives.

Re: Your Favorite Adult

Kara — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:11:07 -0000

Funny, a similar conversation happened to us when in the car Mikayla says: Mommy, why aren't we talking? Me: We can talk if you want to, what would you like to talk about? Mikayla: Umm, I want to talk to my daddy...

Re: Your Favorite Adult

Courtney — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 13:29:16 -0000

Peter, my husband, is my favorite adult!

Re: Your Favorite Adult

Ashley Christian — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 00:40:59 -0000

Josh Christian is my favorite adult

Re: Prop 8 gets 10 minutes of News Coverage!

Josh — Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:35:15 -0000

@ALL - Hi Everyone,

I wanted to first let you all know, that I greatly appreciate your input you have shared here. I never expected this post to launch into such a discussion.

I have personally learned a lot through this and I believe that it makes us all better. If for nothing else, the fact that we can all better understand the many varying viewpoints out there on this subject.

As @Sarah mentioned above, I too sense the time has come to bring this part of the discussion to an end. There are strong feelings and emotions attached to everyone here and as the comments get longer it becomes quite easier to misunderstand and misread these incredibly long (but good!) comments. As these go on, the "Assassin of Amped Emotions" (See the Deadly Viper guys for that!) creeps further and further in.

Because of this, I have decided to close the comments for this post. It's hit 40 comments now, each comment rather lengthy and I feel that while the information in here may be good or relevant to those commenting, no one else will likely spend the time to read through everything here, which in turn could cause more misunderstanding, something I don't want to have happen.

So, with that, I again thank you for your involvement. Of course, feel free to continue to comment on other posts, but I'd ask that we try to keep the discussion related directly to the post at hand. In addition to this, we all pretty much know each other's Facebook/email and can continue conversation outside of here if it's so desired.

Peace out everyone!

Re: Prop 8 gets 10 minutes of News Coverage!

Sarah — Thu, 23 Oct 2008 22:58:10 -0000

Caleb,

This is my final post because I fear this becoming an argument rather than a valuable discussion. On some things you and I will have to agree to disagree.

I think the significant difference between your world view at this point in your life and mine has to do with our life experience. I am not invalidating your youth at all as I know some kids-yes kids who have had much MORE life experience related to this topic than I. That being said:

Ashley is right in that Russ and I are very much sacrifically comitted to youth ministry because we believe (as it is proven fact) that the majority of people develop their views, moral, beliefs, etc. during these crucial years. We have come across literall hundreds of kids in our 7 years ministering together and many more years ministering prior to that. Like I said in a previous post, we have always had GLBT in our youth groups-sometimes to the dismay of the church we were at and many of them stayed simply because we were not willing to judge, but simply call sin what it is and love them as people wherever they were and however they needed. Some of these kids left the GLBT lifestyle,some still live in it, however none have ever accused us of being "anti-gay" or judgemental or violating their civil rights. We also have family members who are gay. All of our friends and family know where we stand when it comes to gay marriage and although they may disagree with us, they know we love them for who they are as people, just as Christ does-they do not feel we are violating their civil rights so I do not know where that view of yours is coming from.

Also, my life experience as a youth pastor's wife and mom tells me that BECAUSE there is no language in either prop 8 or in the current california code dealing with gay marriage that people can and will take the opportunity to promote their own agenda in our public schools. Teachers are people too, some with much stronger feelings than yours and giving them a blank slate when it comes to any controversial issue allowing them to discuss it without parent's consent or prior knowledge I believe whole-heartedly is taking the parent out of the equation.

As far as your idealism and grace go-seriously do you think I don't believe in God's grace? I think you are confusing grace with permission to sin. Paul says in Romans "so should we then go on sinning so that His grace may increase?" Meganoita! (Greek for BY NO MEANS!!!). Just because God extends grace does not mean that those who are under His grace should continue to live in a sinful lifestyle. As for those who have not yet accepted His grace-it is an entirely different issue as I addressed in my first post.

Finally, politically I am a registered independant. I have also agreed with you that this should not be on the ballot. However, because it is I PERSONALLY feel that I need to vote yes. Also, please do not group me with John McCain-I will not vote for him or Obama-just FYI.

So, like I said, these are from my life experience as it is-as my dad said earlier we all have different life experiences that influence our bent in this discussion. Just please know that I am coming from all of these as someone who knows people believers and non believers who struggle with the GBLT lifestyles and is/has been trying to come alongside them for many years now to love them and walk with them in their journey to come to faith.

Thats all. If you would like to hear more details, please send me a facebook message or something and we can email that way.

Re: Prop 8 gets 10 minutes of News Coverage!

Ashley Christian — Thu, 23 Oct 2008 20:08:15 -0000

Caleb- I am dizzied by your circular reasoning.

2 things
1) "Let's cross that bridge when we get to it", the bridge has already been crossed my friend.
2) 90% of believers make their decision for Christ before age 18. One of the major reasons Josh and I, and I would guess Russ and Sarah as well, are so passionate about youth ministry that we would sacrifice so much to reach hurting students who are more receptive to the gospel message then they ever will be in their lives. The "formative years" is a term coined and taught by secular psychology, I do not make this stuff up, even the ACLU and ADL acknowledges and utilizes it in their GL push in schools:

"**From the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) Amicus Curiae Brief:
“Diversity education is most effective when it begins during the students’ formative years. The earlier diversity education occurs, the more likely it is that students will be able to educate their peers, thereby compounding the benefits of this instruction.” [p 3]
(Note: The ADL is a leading member of the No on 8 campaign)

From the ACLU Amicus Curiae Brief:
“Specifically, the parents in this case do not have a constitutional right to override the professional pedagogical judgment of the school with respect to the inclusion within the curriculum of the age-appropriate children’s book…King and King.” [p 9]
“First, a broad right of a parent to opt a child out of a lesson would subject a school to a staggering administrative burden…Second, in contravention of the axiom that ‘the classroom is peculiarly the ‘marketplace of ideas’’ [citations], a broad right of a parent to opt a child out of a lesson would chill discussion in the classroom…Third, the coming and goings of those children who have been opted out of lessons would be highly disruptive to the learning environment. Moreover, such comings and goings would fatally undermine the lessons that schools teach the other students.” [pp 22-23]"

And check this out for more on the signs in Modesto: (the language is slanted, but still interesting information)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/usn...

Re: Prop 8 gets 10 minutes of News Coverage!

Caleb — Thu, 23 Oct 2008 19:19:08 -0000

P.S.: And by "public schools and home-schooling," I mean 'private schools and home-schooling.'

Re: Prop 8 gets 10 minutes of News Coverage!

Caleb — Thu, 23 Oct 2008 19:17:41 -0000

Sarah, you mentioned why the church began using politics as a vehicle for this issue, but not why it should be used as a vehicle. The fact that it has been made one does not mean that it should have been made one nor does it mean that it needs to continue to be one.

Now, as far as the civil rights of the issue, I don't know that I made myself clear enough previously. I am not talking about the specific civil rights that are given to the unions; I am asserting that calling it a 'marriage' is and and of itself a civil right. Though I don't like to compare the civil rights movement of the 50s, 60s and 70s to the gay civil rights movement, I liken this to the doctrine of 'separate but equal.' Imagine (though this obviously not the case) that blacks and whites were given separate drinking fountains. Each fountain was equally well-maintained, equally aesthetically pleasing in an equally aesthetically-pleasing environment, with equally cool water and equal water pressure. Would you still be telling the blacks that they were not worthy of drinking with the whites? Yes. It doesn't matter how equal the specific and individual rights of a 'civil union;' merely refusing to call the union a marriage tells the gay community that they are not good enough. I miss your point with the mention of 'common-law marriages' and think it moot because they are legally recognized and called just that: marriages.

Furthermore, I know you recognize that Prop 8 has no educational language embedded in it whatsoever, so your assertion that you would no longer be able to pull your children out of public school is speculative at best and I say we fight that battle when it comes. (By the way, if you're that worried, though I know it's not optimal financially or logistically, Americans have the right to both public school and home-schooling.)

As far as idealism, I do not think it is a moot point. Ironically, 6 years ago, I too would have disagreed with nearly everything I have said in this discussion. I am a born cynic. I have had a very 'realist' view of the world for the entirety of my short life, and I am fully aware that we are totally-depraved people born of sinful nature with no hope outside the grace of God. This, however, is the beauty of Christ's idealism and the beauty of our call to bring about the Kingdom of God: when it is fully come, it will have none of the depraved nature that we have today. I think Christians have lost sight of the hope of the impending Kingdom and too much, we do just accept what we're given and try to do our best with it. I think you'll have a lot of trouble finding scriptural evidence for that mentality, however. We're not called to accept what we're given; we're called to continually push for the expansion of God's Kingdom. Again, in light of this, if any of you have any free time, I want to recommend all of the titles I mentioned above.

Just because you are faced with a political decision, it does not mean you have to go with the status quo and vote. I sent in my absentee ballot, I was on the verge of not voting, and, this being my first major election, I was afraid that if I waited any longer, I would probably never participate in an election. It was admittedly hard for me to shed the doctrine of stewardship in political involvement that I had so easily accepted my entire life. If I was not an absentee voter and was just voting November 4th, I probably would choose not to vote.

Also, nearly every libertarian-minded person in the world, including John McCain would disagree with your last statement. Some things really shouldn't be on the ballot, and you may have to go against your principals if you truly believe that certain things should not be left up to the government.

Ashley, I am working from a few limitations here in how I present my view. All of you are looking at this from a politically-minded perspective, whereas I do not think this should be a political issue. Because of this, I must sort of cater to both sides - if you demand that it be a political issue, I give you my opinion on the topic from a political perspective, though ideally, I would choose that Christians not look at this as a political issue. Hopefully that clarifies that position. As far as the blog issue, all I mean is that the internet holds certain limitations on truly productive discussion, but it is the best we have.

Your concern in your 'formative years' environment seems to represent this idea that if people get too far from Christian ideology, they will never be able to shed their preconceptions and thus ministering to them will be more difficult. However, Christ found it easiest to minister to the most broken people he came across; no one is beyond redemption. In my own experience, it's a lot harder to represent my faith to someone who might have grown up in the church and has been complacent about their faith than someone who is radically opposed to my views.

The 'so-what' argument ignores the idea that, again, we live in a two-kingdom world and our call is not to transform culture through the vehicles of culture but through the vehicle of Christ. I have not yet brought up 'separation of church and state,' but I think it is valid in the sense that the church and the state have radically opposed goals when it comes to the majority of issues, and as Christians we must acknowledge that. Your view of homosexual marriage as 'morally controversial propaganda' is shaded by a Christian precept; your ideology is that of Christian tradition, and much of the world simply does not see it so.

Re: Prop 8 gets 10 minutes of News Coverage!

Ashley Christian — Thu, 23 Oct 2008 17:47:01 -0000

Sarah, awesome post.

Caleb I found your post to be a bit contradicting in and of itself in where when and how you personally believe this issue should be debated. You left me confused as to where you think this should be discussed. Not in texas, not in politics, not on a blog, not in a church, not in a car, not on a train, not with a fox, not in a box, I do not like green eggs and ham, I do not like them Sam I am. But does it really matter? It will be discussed where and how it will be discussed regardless of our preferences . . . your words and mine are case in point.

About the "we heard evolution in school and turned out Creationists" comment. Good point, and in many ways I must recant my former comparison of this topic and evolution being taught in school in that they do have similarities, but those are very limited. Some thoughts for you to ponder:

a. My pro-creationist and ideally supportive environment in my formative years was the exception, and very far from the norm. The relativist and lack of higher accountability influence of evolution upon our youth is evidenced to me all the time as I work in youth ministry.

b. My public education on evolution was confined to one unit in my sophomore biology class and several lessons in a science elective my junior year. There was no kindergarten introduction to the topic or history of evolution month celebrated in my elementary school as is being done with homosexuality is week in a CA public school in Hayward.

c. And I leave you with this: So what? So what if I turned out a creationist in spite of my brief training in evolution as fact. Students turning out with a pro-traditional marriage perspective in no way legitimizes morally controversial propaganda being spread in public schools.

Really, truly, deeply, love you ALL.

Then end.

Re: Prop 8 gets 10 minutes of News Coverage!

Sarah — Thu, 23 Oct 2008 16:39:31 -0000

Caleb,

First, let me say I agree-we need to get the fam together again-4 years is too long!

Next, I would like to take a stab at explaining my viewpoint in light of your recent post...and again-limited time while both kids are sleeping so please bear with me.

First, I tried to mention earlier why this has become a politicl issue-and needs to be now that it is on the ballot...the implications of what a no vote would mean are so vague when it comes to practical everyday life (especially for our kids) that until I know what they are my vote will be yes.

Second, I do not see anything wrong with tell someone who is gay that I want them to have the same civil rights as I do but I believe by definition it cannot be called marriage. I believe that by definition marriage is between one man and one woman and is a covenant entered into with God-and because of this I do not believe that a union of two gay men or lesbian women can be called marriage-this does NOT mean that I don't want them to have the same civil rights beacuse I believe as you do that people in our country should have the same rights regardless-I just do not believe that giving them these rights can be called marriage. Which also makes me want to reiterate under current California law-even without gay marriage being legal-any partners (regardless of orientation) who have co-habitated for I believe it is more than 10 years-have those rights. Even heterosexual couples who are not married under the law like my hubby's aunt and uncle. For this reason I do not see this as a civil rights issue.

Next, I too believe that as a parent it is my responsibility to teach, guide and protect my kids and train them in the way they should go. Because I believe this, I believe it is my right as a parent to pull them out of public school if the school is doing something that I do not believe is right or teaching something contradictory to my faith-not that I would always do that, but that I should have the right to know about it and have the choice. If prop 8 doesn't pass I will not have that right anymore in relation to this issue. I believe that is wrong. How can I as a parent give away my responsibility to our schools for this?

Next, whether or not we should maintain our idealism as Christians is a moot point. After college, Russ and I were hit pretty hard that our world is broken and it is our charge as Christians to live in this broken world and do our best to be a beacon in it. At least for us, our idealism faded to reality when we realized that we cannot live an idealistic life in a broken world and actually make a change for better. That is my opinion not necessarily backed by scripture although I'm sure if I tried I could find some to back this-it is just what I believe with all my being. We, like it or not, live in a broken world-Christans included-its all broken, so what we need to figure out is not whether this is what the intent was for us to live, but how do we now do our best with what God has given us to live in this world. As far as that relates to this discussion, we have all experienced different levels of brokenness and ways that people in our lives are broken-how do we live our the ideal of "hate the sin, love the sinner?" That is going to look dfferent to each of us, and it should, we all have different strengths the Lord can use and all have different weaknesses which we have to work through.

I believe that I understand where you are coming from as about 6 years ago I probably would have agreed with you on most of it, however several things have happened since then to make me believe differently. I can go into those with you in a different format if you wish, but would rather leave them out of this public forum. However, the bottom line for me on this issue is this-there is no "clean" answer, and I do not believe this should be on the ballot this year as the voters of california have been very clear in the past where they stand. However, a few judges decided they knew better what was best for us and here we are. The question now is now that you ARE faced with having it be a political issue (whether or not you believe it should be) how are you going to respond? From what I udnerstand, you have already cast your vote, I however have not. I know I will vote yes because of what I have allready said, but please do not think that by voting no for any issue you aren't actually voting no. Voting no is a no vote not a "I don't think this should be on the ballot" vote. Anyway, thats my 2 cents...